Mark, it's been a while since we've
马克，我们已经有一段时间没有
podcasted together.
一起播客了。
>> It's been ages. Been that sort of funny
已经过去很久了。 这是一个有趣的
summer season where you expect it's
夏天，你以为它会
going to be quiet, but obviously it
很安静，但显然它
hasn't been quiet. You've been off in
并不安静。 您已离开
Alaska. Lucky you.
阿拉斯加。 幸运的你。
>> I know. Yeah, I managed to squeeze in a
我知道。 是的，我设法挤出
little bit of sightseeing, but more
一点时间去观光，但更
importantly, I've not spoken to you
重要的是，
since you got back from your holiday.
自从你度假回来后我就没和你说过话。
How was it? I
它怎么样？ 我玩得很
>> had a great time. When what is the best
开心。 美国最好的部分是什么
part about part of America? Uh the best
？ 呃
thing about America, do you reckon?
，你认为这是美国最好的事情吗？
>> The national parks.
国家公园。
>> 100%. Yeah, it is. and and I I went to
100%。 是的。 我
Utah uh with the family and um I've got
和家人一起去了犹他州，嗯，我有
young kids and we we rented an RV as
年幼的孩子，我们租了一辆
they call them here, camper van.
他们称之为 RV 的露营车。
>> Uh we drove around Utah and it was
呃，我们开车绕犹他州转了一圈，景色
absolutely spectacular. So I really
真是壮观。 所以我真心
recommend it. Arches National Park,
推荐它。 拱门国家公园、
Canyon Lands National Park. Um it was a
峡谷地国家公园。 嗯，这是一个
Dead Horse State Park, all these places.
死马州立公园，所有这些地方。
Absolutely stunning. Cowboy country, we
绝对令人惊叹。 牛仔之乡，我们
loved it.
喜欢它。
>> It really is beautiful, isn't it, Utar?
它真的很美丽，不是吗，Utar？
I've not been to Archers, but I went to
我没有去过阿切尔斯，但我去过
Zion and just those red rust mountains,
锡安，那些红锈山脉，让
you feel like you're almost on another
你感觉仿佛置身于另一个
planet.
星球。
>> Yeah. No, it's wonder. My my my faith in
是的。 不，这是奇迹。 我对
America, if it was ever in doubt and all
美国的信心，如果曾经受到怀疑和
its wonder, uh was uh definitely
怀疑的话，
restored over the past few weeks.
在过去的几周里肯定得到了恢复。
Anyway, I'm Mark Stone.
无论如何，我是马克·斯通。
>> I'm Martha Kelmer.
我是玛莎·凯尔默。
>> And on today's episode, it has been a
在今天的节目中，我们了解到过去
very busy couple of weeks. Uh I got back
几周非常忙碌。 呃，我
just on Monday. It felt like naugh to 60
周一刚回来。 感觉就像
in about 20 seconds. Goodness me. busier
在大约 20 秒内就加速到了 60。 我的天哪。
for you, Martha, than it has been uh for
玛莎，你比
me and for James. Uh it's been busy,
我和詹姆斯都忙。 呃，
too. Uh lots of you have sent us lots of
也很忙。 嗯，你们中有很多人都向我们发送了很多
questions. We haven't done a Q&A Q&A
问题。 我们已经有一段时间没有做问答
episode for a little while. Uh so we
节目了。 呃，所以我们
thought we would do one.
想做一个。
>> Yeah, thank you for sending all your
是的，一如既往地感谢您发送所有
questions in as ever and keep them
问题并继续
coming. Firstly, Joseph has emailed in
提问。 首先，约瑟夫
all the way from Nigeria. Thank you very
从尼日利亚发来电子邮件。 非常感谢您的
much for listening. What does Joseph
聆听。
want to know, Mark? Yes, Joseph wants to
马克，约瑟夫想知道什么？ 是的，约瑟夫想
know uh what are Trump's latest comments
知道特朗普
after meeting with both Putin and then
Zalinski over the past week or so. Is he
在过去一周左右与普京和扎林斯基会面后发表了什么最新评论。 他是
leaning more towards Russia or to
更倾向于俄罗斯还是
Ukraine's uh rhetoric? And a follow-up
乌克兰的言论？
question, uh he's asking, is there any
他的后续问题是，
law in the US that forbids a sitting
美国是否有法律禁止现任
president of the United States from
总统
reducing or totally withdrawing from the
减少或完全退出
state's world policing efforts? Yeah,
国家的全球警务工作？ 是的，
two really good questions there. And on
这两个问题确实很好。
on the first one, and what do you think,
接下来是第一个问题，玛莎，您觉得怎么样
Martha? It's really it's extremely hard
？ 确实，
uh to to to know where Trump is on a
要知道特朗普
certain issue from day to day. I I I
每天对某个问题的看法是极其困难的。 我
felt that actually back in the UK. Um I
实际上在英国就有这种感觉。 嗯，
was back in the UK a few weeks ago and
几周前我回到了英国，
everyone wanted to know uh from me what
每个人都想从我这里知道
I thought of what Trump was doing, what
我对特朗普所做的事情的看法，以及
what I thought he his thinking was. And
我认为他的想法是什么。
it's just it's so hard, isn't it?
这真的太难了，不是吗？
>> Yeah. I think after seeing Alaska and
是的。 我认为，在看到阿拉斯加和
the greeting for President Putin there,
普京总统在那里受到的欢迎之后，
you know, this big red carpet welcome,
你知道，这种盛大的红地毯欢迎仪式、
the fly pass, the round of applause, I
飞行通行证和掌声，我
think concern around the world and
认为全世界，
especially for Zalinsky and other
特别是扎林斯基和其他
European leaders was that Trump was
欧洲领导人担心的是，特朗普
siding with Putin's narrative about the
站在普京关于
war in Ukraine. We've known for a long
乌克兰战争的叙述一边。 我们早就知道，
time that Trump kind of holds both Putin
特朗普认为普京
and Zalinski responsible for the
和扎林斯基应对
situation in Ukraine. you know, he talks
乌克兰局势负责。 你知道，他说
about everybody being to blame, kind of
每个人都应该受到指责，而
ignoring the fact that, you know, this
忽略了一个事实，那就是，这
was a sovereign nation that was invaded.
是一个被入侵的主权国家。
>> Mostly it's mostly it's Biden that's to
大部分都是拜登的
blame, isn't it?
错，不是吗？
>> Exactly. Um, and, you know, there was
确切地。 嗯，你知道，
very little evidence on the basis of the
基于
warm relations with Putin that he had
他在阿拉斯加会晤期间与普京的良好关系
during that Alaska meeting, you know,
，几乎没有证据表明他说很
saying it's good to see old faces and,
高兴见到老面孔，你知道
you know, letting him dictate who speaks
，让他决定谁
first in the news conference. very
在新闻发布会上先发言。 几乎
little evidence that he'd shifted in his
没有证据表明他改变了
opinion um that you know there was
看法，你知道，
shared responsibility for this and I
这件事要负共同责任，我
think that's why European leaders were
认为这就是为什么欧洲领导人
so keen to get to DC on Monday to be
如此热衷于周一前往华盛顿
seen publicly to support Zalinski and
公开支持扎林斯基，
also this feeling that Donald Trump
而且这种感觉是，唐纳德·特朗普
often sides with the last person who was
经常站在最后一个在
in his ear they all wanted to be there
他耳边说话的人一边，他们都想去那里，
and that's why there was this historic
这就是为什么
you know huge presence of European
欧洲
leaders in the oval office and I It did
领导人在椭圆形办公室里出席这一历史性活动的原因，这确实
have an effect. I think Zalinsky seemed
产生了影响。 我认为扎林斯基似乎
to be way better drilled than he was in
比他二月份第
his first visit to the Oval Office in
一次访问椭圆形办公室时训练得更好
February. And I think it may have
。 我认为这可能
changed Donald Trump's thinking on
改变了唐纳德·特朗普的看法
things. You know, Putin was trying to
。 你知道，普京试图将
cast Zalinski as being the obstacle to
扎林斯基描绘成
peace in Ukraine. I I think Trump now
乌克兰和平的障碍。 我认为特朗普现在
coming round to the idea that Putin is
开始认识到普京
in fact the obstacle to peace. And
实际上是和平的障碍。
yesterday, you know, Donald Trump seemed
你知道，昨天唐纳德·特朗普似乎
to suggest that there was a
暗示
justification for Ukraine to be on the
乌克兰
offensive in Russia. He posted on Truth
对俄罗斯发动攻势是有理由的。 他在“真相社交”上发帖
Social saying it's very hard, if not
称，
impossible, to win a war without
不
attacking an invader's country. It's
攻击侵略者的国家就很难赢得战争，甚至是不可能的。 他说，这
like a great team in sports that has a
就像体育界一支伟大的球队，拥有
fantastic defense, he said, but is not
出色的防守，但却不允许
allowed to play offense, an American
进攻，
term there. There is no chance of
这是美国的术语。
winning, he said. It's like that with
他说，没有获胜的机会。
Ukraine and Russia. So I think there is
乌克兰和俄罗斯的情况也是如此。 所以我认为，
a a slight, you know, reason for
optimism um for Ukraine in that Trump
对乌克兰来说，我们有一点乐观的理由，因为
seems to be, I think, at the moment
我认为，特朗普目前似乎
siding with Silinski, although that can
站在西林斯基一边，尽管这
all change on the flip of the coin.
一切都可能在瞬间改变。
>> It really can. And you know that that
确实可以。 你知道，
that um that post just kind of like came
那个帖子就像是
out of nowhere. But it certainly
凭空出现的。 但这无疑
suggests that today at least he is very
表明，至少在今天，他仍然
much of the view that he needs to be to
坚信自己需要
be hard on Putin. Although remember that
对普京采取强硬态度。 但请记住，这是
as as as part of the whole process that
brought Putin to Alaska. The whole idea
普京来到阿拉斯加的整个过程的一部分。
of sanctions against Putin and further
针对普京的制裁以及进一步
sanctions have kind of gone away. And I
制裁的想法已经消失。 我
think Trump is now in a position where
认为特朗普现在
he knows that if he wants to bring Putin
知道，如果他想让普京
to the table, he can't uh be imposing
坐到谈判桌前，他就不能
more sanctions on him because that's
对他施加更多制裁，因为这
going to push him further away uh from
会让他离
the negotiating table. So, so if you're
谈判桌越来越远。 所以，如果你
sitting in the Kremlin, if you are
坐在克里姆林宫，如果你是
Putin, um I think you think maybe you're
普京，嗯，我想你会认为也许你
actually in a better place uh now than
现在的处境比以前更好了
you were. So, it's kind of some very
。 所以，这是一种非常
strange diplomacy uh that is going on
奇怪的外交，
right after he he he he posted what
就在他发布了
you've just read, another post uh from
你刚刚读到的内容之后，
from him on Truth Social um with a
他在 Truth Social 上发布了另一篇帖子，其中有一张
picture of of him and of Putin, the one
他和普京的照片，一张
in Alaska and next to it and with it the
在阿拉斯加，旁边是
1959 photograph Nixon confronting uh
1959 年尼克松与
then Soviet leader Nikita Kristoff. that
当时的苏联领导人尼基塔·克里斯托夫对峙的照片。
that image of Nixon and Krischev um
尼克松和克里斯托弗的形象
became kind of a symbol of the United
成为了
States standing up to the Soviet Union.
美国对抗苏联的象征。
So the photo that that he's chosen of he
因此，他选择的他
and Putin is him kind of jabbing Putin
和普京的合影是他
uh w with the finger and it's kind of
用手指戳普京的姿势，这有点
similar uh to the one of the old Soviet
类似于前苏联
leader and Richard Nixon. So so the
领导人和理查德·尼克松的合影。 所以
image he's trying to portray there is
他试图塑造的形象是，
that he is the strong man and he is
他是一个强人，他正在
telling Putin what he needs to do. Um
告诉普京他需要做什么。 嗯，
but the reality is from what we have
但事实是，
heard out of the Kremlin over the past
从过去 48 小时我们从克里姆林宫听到的消息来看，
48 hours is that they have no interest
他们
in peace. Uh they the the Sergey Lavrov
对和平不感兴趣。 呃，他们是
the wy foreign minister uh of of
Vladimir Putin um effectively saying
弗拉基米尔·普京的外交部长谢尔盖·拉夫罗夫，实际上是在说，
look we're not interested in any in in
我们对
these European security guarantees uh
这些欧洲安全保障不感兴趣，这
completely undermining everything uh
完全破坏了
that was discussed on Monday and frankly
周一讨论的一切，坦率地说，
uh making Trump look very weak indeed.
这确实让特朗普看起来很软弱。
>> Yeah. on to yeah on to Joseph's second
是的。 是的，约瑟夫的第二个
question leads on from that about
问题引出了
whether Donald Trump is compelled by law
唐纳德·特朗普是否受法律约束来
to maintain world policing efforts. Well
维持世界警察工作。
firstly there isn't anything in the US
首先，
constitution that stops a president from
being more or less interventionist apart
from the fact that Congress has to
除了国会必须
approve various decisions such as the US
批准各种决定（例如美国
going to war. That is in article one
发动战争）之外，美国宪法中没有任何内容阻止总统或多或少地进行干预。 这是
section 8 of the constitution. I may or
宪法第一条第八款。 我可能需要或者
may not have had to look that up. Um,
不需要查找它。 嗯，
also there is no formal world police as
正如约瑟夫所说，也没有正式的世界警察
Joseph puts it. That being said, Donald
。 话虽如此，唐纳德·
Trump has been more interventionist than
特朗普的干预程度比
he said he would be. He campaigned on
他说的要高。 他致力于
ending US involvement in foreign wars.
结束美国参与外国战争。
Well, he now seems to be acting as well
好吧，如果你愿意的话，他现在似乎名义上也担任
police chief if you like in in all but
警察局长一职
name. You know, he's set his sights, we
。 你知道，我们知道，他的目标
know this, on the Nobel Peace Prize. He
是诺贝尔和平奖。 他对
is irked by the fact that Barack Obama
巴拉克·奥巴马
has won it and he hasn't. Interestingly,
获胜而他却没有获胜的事实感到恼火。 有趣的是，
he seems to have his sight set even
他现在似乎把目标定得
higher now. He did an interview with Fox
更高了。 本周他接受了福克斯
News this week. Uh and he said, "I want
新闻的采访。 呃，他说：“我想
to try and get to heaven."
尝试去天堂。”
>> Yeah, Nobel Priest prize not good
是的，诺贝尔牧师奖还不够好
enough. He wants the Golden Gates.
。 他想要金门大桥。
>> Well, losing Russian and Ukrainian,
嗯，失去了俄罗斯和乌克兰人，
mostly soldiers. Some people as missiles
大部分是士兵。 有些人像导弹一样
hit wrong spots or get lobbed into
击中了错误的地点或被扔进了
cities like Kiev and towns. But uh you
基辅等城市和城镇。 但是，你
know when if I can save 7,000 people a
知道，如果我每周可以拯救 7,000 人
week from being killed, I think that's a
免于被杀害，我认为这是一件非常
pretty I want to try and get to heaven
美妙的事情，如果可能的话，我想尝试进入天堂
if possible. I I'm hearing I'm not doing
。 我听说我做得不太
well. I really at the bottom of the
好。 我确实处于
totem pole.
最底层。
>> But if I can get to heaven, this will be
但如果我能到达天堂，这将成为
one of the reasons
>> part of this quest uh to get to heaven
我到达天堂的部分原因之一，
now seems to be about solving uh global
现在看来，这似乎是为了解决全球
conflicts. And being the superintendent
冲突。 而担任
of the world police is all part of this.
世界警察总监也是其中的一部分。
You know, he's been boasting for a long
你知道，他一直在吹嘘
time about the fact that he's solved six
自己
wars in his first six months in office.
上任六个月内解决了六场战争。
He's now saying it's seven. He's talking
他现在说是七。 他谈论的是
about Armenia and Azabaijan, Serbia and
亚美尼亚和阿塞拜疆、塞尔维亚和
Kosovo, Cambodia, Thailand, the
科索沃、柬埔寨、泰国、刚果
Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda,
民主共和国和卢旺达、
India and Pakistan of course and Iran
印度和巴基斯坦，当然还有伊朗
and Israel. And to be fair to Donald
和以色列。 公平地说，唐纳德·
Trump, he has had some solid wins here.
特朗普在这里取得了一些实质性的胜利。
Uh Pakistan we know nominated him for
呃，我们知道巴基斯坦提名他获得
the Nobel Peace Prize. They said he'd
诺贝尔和平奖。 他们说他
been uh key in resolving that conflict.
是解决这场冲突的关键人物。
India, on the other hand, said he didn't
另一方面，印度表示他
have much uh to do with it. Serbia and
与此事没有太大关系。 以塞尔维亚和
Kosovo, to take that for an example, not
科索沃为例，
sure whether they were actually going to
不确定他们是否真的要
war, but Trump said he prevented new
开战，但特朗普表示，他阻止了
violence from breaking out there. Uh
那里爆发新的暴力事件。 呃，
Egypt and Ethiopia, there's actually no
埃及和埃塞俄比亚实际上没有
deal there. But with Thailand and
达成协议。 但泰国、
Cambodia and Israel, Iran, ceasefires
柬埔寨、以色列和伊朗之间
have held and Donald Trump did play a
已经达成停火协议，唐纳德·特朗普确实
role in bringing those about.
在其中发挥了作用。
Interestingly, you know, when he came
有趣的是，你知道，当他
into office, he said that he thought
上任时，他说他认为
Ukraine and Russia would be the easiest
乌克兰和俄罗斯的冲突是最容易
conflict to solve. Don't know quite what
解决的。 不知道是什么
gave him that impression. And there is
让他有这样的印象。 并且
no real evidence that Russia is shifting
没有确凿的证据表明俄罗斯正在改变
on its aim to take over not just the
其目标，不仅要占领
part of Ukraine that it's already
乌克兰已经
invading, but but the whole of Ukraine.
入侵的部分地区，而且要占领整个乌克兰。
Now on onto a huge story domestically,
现在来谈谈国内的一个重大故事，
Mark. Uh we've had a question from Tony.
马克。 呃，我们收到了托尼的一个问题。
He asks, "What's it like being in
他问道：“
Washington DC right now with the
现在国
National Guard on the streets? And is it
民警卫队在华盛顿特区街头，你感觉怎么样？这
having an impact on your everyday life?"
对你的日常生活有影响吗？”
>> Yeah, it's it's well, it's it's a
是的，这确实是一个
spectacle uh for sure because when I
奇观，因为
left DC a few weeks ago, they were not
几周前我离开华盛顿时，他们还没有出现
on the streets and by the time I got
在街上，而当我
back uh you know, there's a Humvey uh
回来时，你知道，有一辆悍马
armored vehicle parked outside Union
装甲车停在联合
Station uh just down the road from from
车站外面，就在
our office here. There are other armored
我们办公室附近的路上。 还有其他装甲
personnel carriers. People, some people
运兵车。 人们，有些人
are saying that there are tanks
说到处
everywhere. There are no tanks. Uh tank
都有坦克。 没有坦克。 呃，坦克，
I think people see these these vehicles
我认为人们看到这些车辆
and think that they because they're
并认为它们是
military things they look like tanks.
军用车辆，所以它们看起来像坦克。
There are no tanks on the streets. That
街上没有坦克。 那太
that is an exaggeration. But there are
夸张了。 但那里有
National Guard and there are some some
国民警卫队，
cary colored uh vehicles around the
周围还有一些彩色车辆
place. this is troops on the streets in
。 从表面上看，这是在街头
order on the face of it at least um to
部署军队，至少是为了
improve uh the the crime rate uh in
降低
Washington.
华盛顿的犯罪率。
>> And obviously there are suggestions from
显然，
Donald Trump's critics that this is all
唐纳德·特朗普的批评者认为，这都是他
part of an overly aggressive
过度不负责任地
irresponsible use of his presidential
使用总统
power to pursue his political opponents
权力来追击政治对手将
to federalize uh democratun cities. And
民主党城市联邦化的行为。
to that end, you might remember, I'm
为此，你可能还记得，我
sure people will remember, that the
相信人们会记得，
National Guard were deployed onto the
国民警卫队被部署到
streets of Los Angeles, 4,000 of them
洛杉矶街头，共有 4,000 名国民警卫队队员和
alongside uh 700 Marines. That was in
700 名海军陆战队员。 这是
response to uh Donald Trump's uh
对唐纳德·特朗普
immigration policy. And the Democrat
移民政策的回应。
mayor of the city, Karen Bass, said it
该市民主党市长卡伦·巴斯表示，此举
only served to inflame tensions. Almost
只会加剧紧张局势。
all of those troops have now been
目前，几乎所有士兵都已
released, although 300 troops do remain
获释，但仍有 300 名士兵留
on the streets of LA. Donald Trump wants
在洛杉矶街头。 唐纳德·特朗普希望
to extend their mission. wants more
延长他们的使命。 希望
federal involvement in the running of
联邦政府
Los Angeles in the leadup to the 2028
在 2028 年奥运会筹备过程中更多地参与洛杉矶的管理
Olympic Games, too. So, I I think DC and
。 所以，我认为 DC 和
LA are the starting point. I I think
LA 是起点。 我认为
we'll see Donald Trump increase uh his
我们会看到唐纳德·特朗普加大
efforts to put National Guard on the
力度将国民警卫队派往
streets elsewhere as well.
其他地方的街道。
>> Yeah, there's a there's another side to
是的，
this as well. I mean, there are two two
这件事还有另一面。 我的意思是，
things going on here. A, he wants to
这里发生了两件事。 答，他希望
improve crime uh in the crime rate and
改善犯罪率，
sort out the crime problem in Washington
解决华盛顿
and in other cities. Um but he is which
和其他城市的犯罪问题。 嗯，但是他是
is lordable but you have to question the
可敬的，但你必须质疑
the abilities o of the national guard to
国民警卫队
do that. I mean experts say military are
做到这一点的能力。 我的意思是专家说军队
not going to be able long term to
无法长期
improve a crime problem in a particular
改善某个城市的犯罪问题
city. Although um optically um you can
。 尽管从视觉上看，你可以
see how it might look all powerful. The
看出它看起来很强大。
other thing that's happening of course
当然，在
alongside the the the attempts to to
努力
sort out the crime problem is ICE raids
解决犯罪问题的同时，发生的另一件事就是 ICE 突袭
are still going on. that is yeah these
仍在继续。 是的，这些
raids to to um to round up illegals
突袭是为了围捕非法移民，
quote unquote some of them maybe some of
有些人可能是为了围捕非法移民，有些
them maybe not they are they are sort of
人可能不是，他们有点被
swept up in in this um in this sort of
卷入了这种
catchall uh policy and that's happening
包罗万象的政策中，而且这种政策
a lot in Washington as well so two
在华盛顿也经常发生，所以
things going on in parallel here but the
这里有两件事同时发生，但
other thing I want to mention Martha is
我想提的另一件事是玛莎，
that as you might expect uh some uh
正如你可能预料的那样，全国
governors of other Republican states
其他共和党州的一些州长
across the country to curry favor uh
为了讨好
with the president are offering their
总统，正在提供他们
own national guard. So each state in
自己的国民警卫队。 因此，美国每个州都有
America has a national guard at it at
一支国民警卫队听从
the disposal of the governor and some of
州长的调遣，其中一些
these states are sending uh their
州正在派遣国
national guard uh to Washington uh to
民警卫队前往华盛顿提供
help out. Now the irony here is that
帮助。 具有讽刺意味的是，
some of the some of the cities in those
这些州的一些城市的
there are some cities in those states
which have a much worse crime problem uh
犯罪问题
than Washington uh DC. Jackson, uh,
比华盛顿特区严重得多。 以
Mississippi, for example, in I've been
密西西比州的杰克逊为例，我去过
there a couple of times, an incredibly
那里几次，这是密西西比州南部一个极其
poor, uh, city uh, in the south of
贫穷的城市，
Mississippi, um, has a really, really
bad crime problem, far worse than
犯罪问题非常严重，比华盛顿严重得多
Washington. And yet you the the the
。 但你却知道
Mississippi National Guard is not on the
密西西比国民警卫队并没有出现在
streets of Jackson. They're on the
杰克逊的街道上。
streets, oddly of of Washington, DC.
奇怪的是，他们出现在华盛顿特区的街道上。
>> Curious.
好奇的。
>> Anyway, um, moving on. Lizzy uh, from
无论如何，嗯，继续前进。 来自
Sydney, Australia has emailed in. Thank
澳大利亚悉尼的 Lizzy 发来电子邮件。谢谢
you for listening, uh, Lizzy. She asks,
你的聆听，Lizzy。 她问道：
"What is a grand jury?" I've heard the
“大陪审团是什么？” 我
word banded around a lot in regard to
经常听到有关
the Epstein files, but I don't really
爱泼斯坦档案的这个词，但我真的不
know what a grand jury is, Martha.
知道大陪审团是什么，玛莎。
>> Yeah, this is a really interesting
是的，莉齐，这是一个非常有趣的
question and a precient one, Lizzy,
问题，也是一个有先见之明的问题，
because uh as we're
because just yesterday a federal judge
因为就在昨天，纽约的一名联邦法官
in New York uh denied the Justice
驳回了
Department's request to unseal grand
司法部关于解封杰弗里·爱泼斯坦案大
jury transcripts and exhibits in the
陪审团记录和证据的请求
Jeffrey Epstein case. So this is very
。 这在
much in the news and how juries work
新闻中经常被提及，也是美国陪审团如何运作的话题
here in America. The legal and court
。 美国的法律和司法
system in the US is very different to
系统与英国有很大不同
the UK. Here we have two types of
。 这里有两种类型的
juries, both trial juries and grand
陪审团，审判陪审团和大
juries. Trial juries are what you
陪审团。 审判陪审团就是
imagine when you see a jury in a film uh
您在电影或陪审服务中看到陪审团时所想象的陪审团
or jury service. Grand juries are very
。 大陪审团的情况非常
different. You have more jurors up to 23
不同。 大陪审团的陪审员人数最多可达 23
people sit on a grand jury. And you
人。 而且你
don't do just one case. you uh hear
不会只处理一个案子。 你需要在
multiple cases over the course of 18
18 个月内审理多个案件
months, whereas trial juries classically
，而审判陪审团通常
sit every day. Grand juries sometimes
每天都会开庭。 大陪审团有时
meet once or twice a week. And
每周开会一到两次。
crucially, a grand jury is not there to
至关重要的是，大陪审团并不能
decide if someone is innocent or guilty.
决定某人是否有罪。
This is a private proceeding. It's often
这是一个私人诉讼。 它经常
used for white collar crime. And the
被用于白领犯罪。
jury listens to a prosecutor who
陪审团听取检察官
presents the evidence and then decides
提供的证据，然后决定
if there is probable cause for someone
是否有理由对某人提出
to be charged with a crime. If they
犯罪指控。 如果他们
decide there is probable cause, then a
认定有合理的理由，那么
trial will happen. In a grand jury, the
就会进行审判。 在大陪审团中，
prosecutor runs the show and it's down
检察官负责主持审判，
to them to prove that there's enough
他们必须证明有足够的
evidence for the grand jury to decide on
证据让大陪审团决定是否进行
a trial. And you need to have a grand
审判。 你需要让大
jury sit to consider every federal
陪审团来审理每一项联邦
felony. So felony being the most serious
重罪。 因此，重罪是最严重的
type of crime unless the defendant waves
犯罪类型，除非被告放弃
the right to have one and then you go
重罪权利，然后
straight to a trial jury.
直接进入审判陪审团。
>> Yes. So, so when uh transcripts from a
是的。 因此，当
grand jury are unsealed, what that means
大陪审团的记录被公开时，这意味着
is that these private files uh that were
put forward by the prosecutor as
检察官作为
evidence for a trial to either happen or
审判证据提出的这些私人文件是否会
not happen depending on what the jury
进行取决于陪审团的
decide. Those files, those private files
决定。 那些文件，那些
that the grand jury saw, they be become
大陪审团看到的私人文件，都被
uh public. So, it's an unusual thing to
公开了。 所以，这是一件不寻常的事情
do. And if we take the latest
。 如果我们看看
developments in the Epstein saga, the
爱泼斯坦事件的最新进展，
district judge denying the Department of
地区法官拒绝司法部
Justice from unsealing the grand jury
公布
transcripts from the Epstein case, that
爱泼斯坦案的大陪审团记录，这
means that the judge decided that the
意味着法官认为
Department of Justice uh had not cleared
司法部没有达到
a high enough bar required to justify
足够高的门槛，不足以
making this unusual decision to release
做出这一不同寻常的决定，将
uh the private grand jury information
私人大陪审团信息公布
into the public domain. The judge said
到公共领域。 法官说，那
uh that's because the Department of
是因为
Justice uh ha already has enough
司法部已经掌握了足够的
material, some 100,000 pages worth of
材料，大约有 10 万页的
Epstein files uh that they don't need to
爱泼斯坦档案，所以他们不需要
reveal the 70 or so pages in the Epstein
在爱泼斯坦大陪审团审判中透露大约 70 页的文件
grand jury trial. Uh and that the
。 呃，而
unsealing of the information would only
解封信息只会分散
serve as a distraction uh in the judge's
注意力，用法官的
words words a diversion. So he has
话来说，是一种转移注意力的手段。 所以他
denied uh the request to unseal uh that.
拒绝了解封的请求。
But you can you can be sure Martha that
但是你可以确信，玛莎，
as with every conspiracy theory uh you
就像每一个阴谋论一样，你
know it will rumble on. It for many this
知道它会继续下去。 对许多人来说，这只
will only make them think ah there
会让他们认为
really is something up here
这里确实有事情发生，
>> and it's plaguing Donald Trump and his
而且它正在困扰唐纳德·特朗普和他的
presidency. Um
总统任期。 嗯，
>> well well until until he changes the
好吧，直到他改变
subject and makes everyone else look
话题并让其他人把目光转向
elsewhere. Look at look at Ukraine. Look
别处。 看看乌克兰。
at my meeting with Putin. All very
看看我与普京的会面。
convenient you might say.
你可能会说这一切都非常方便。
>> Liv has commented below one of our Tik
Liv 在我们的一个 Tik Toks 下方发表了评论
Toks. Um remember you can get in touch
。 嗯，记住你可以通过
that way. Uh we often say email us at
这种方式联系。 呃，我们经常说通过
trump 100s sky.uk UK, but feel free to
trump 100s sky.uk UK 给我们发送电子邮件，但欢迎在
comment under any of the Trump 100
任何 Trump 100 社交网站上发表评论
socials. Uh, we'll definitely find it.
。 呃，我们一定会找到的。
Anyway, Liv has asked Mark, who is Steve
无论如何，丽芙问过马克，史蒂夫·威科夫是谁
Wickoff? I keep hearing about him, she
？ 我一直听到关于他的消息，她
says. Uh, he seems to be brokering the
说。 呃，他似乎正在促成
most important deals in Israel and
以色列和俄罗斯最重要的交易
Russia.
。
>> Trying to
试着
>> trying to uh I had no idea who he was
试着呃直到几个月前我才知道他是谁
until a few months ago, Liv says. Has he
，丽芙说。 他
always been a politician? I'm not sure
一直都是一名政治家吗？ 我不确定只有
she's alone in wondering where on earth
她一个人想知道
Wickoff has come from.
威科夫到底来自哪里。
>> Yeah. Has he always been a politician?
是的。 他一直都是一名政治家吗？
No. And he and he isn't a politician. He
不，他并不是一名政客。 他
remains uh to he he is not uh part of
仍然呃他
the political uh establishment at all.
根本不是政治呃建制派的一部分。
And perhaps that is why uh he is so
也许这就是为什么他
attractive to Donald Trump. Uh his rise
对唐纳德·特朗普如此有吸引力。 嗯，他在地缘
to the top of the geopolitical
政治
negotiating table has been incredibly
谈判桌上崛起的
quick. In fact, many people uh who are
速度非常快。 事实上，当许多
friends with him, many people uh who
与他交朋友的人、许多
know of him were very surprised when
了解他的人
they suddenly heard that Donald Trump
突然听说唐纳德·特朗普
was making him his his special envoy.
任命他为特使时，他们都感到非常惊讶。
He's kind of the Swiss Army knife, Mr.
他就像一把瑞士军刀，是
Fixit for Donald Trump, appointed as
唐纳德·特朗普的“修理先生”，被任命为
special envoy to the Middle East, but
中东问题特使，但
then asked to solve the Ukraine war as
随后又被要求解决乌克兰战争
well. And he has frankly conspicuously
。 坦白说，
failed on both of those for now. He is
目前他在这两方面都明显失败了。 他正在
trying to make progress. I think it's
努力取得进步。 我认为
very fair to say that. But um he hasn't
这样说非常公平。 但是他
made any um breakthroughs on those two
在这两个关键挑战上没有取得任何突破，
key challenges um because they're so
因为它们太
complex um and that many people say he
复杂了，很多人说他
is wholly unqualified and that's why
完全不合格，这就是
he's failed. I
他失败的原因。
>> I've heard him described as naive. Mark,
我听说有人形容他很天真。 马克，
what sense do you get that what sense do
您觉得
you get of what people and especially
人们特别是
foreign diplomats actually think of him?
外国外交官对他有什么看法？
>> Well, well, I think on on the on the
嗯，嗯，我认为在
Russia file, he has um seems to have
俄罗斯问题上，他似乎
displayed quite a lot of naivity. Uh but
表现出了相当多的天真。 呃，但是，
but on his other file uh on Israel Gaza
但是在他的另一份关于以色列加沙的文件中，
um you know diplomats I talked to have
你知道，我交谈过的外交官们
actually been really quite impressed uh
实际上
with his his ability to to do things
对他以
differently. He has managed to to get he
不同方式做事的能力印象深刻。 他已经设法得到它但
hasn't managed to solve it. Absolutely
还没有解决它。 绝对
not. Look at Gaza. It's a disaster. So
不是。 看看加沙。 这是一场灾难。 所以就这样吧
so take that. But then behind that
。 但在
politic uh diplomats in the Middle East,
中东的政治外交官、
Gulf Arab diplomats do say that that he
海湾阿拉伯外交官的背后，他们确实说，他的
his fresh thinking and just doing things
新思维和做事
in a slightly different way um has
方式略有不同，
actually moved the bar uh just a little
实际上已经稍微改变了标准，
bit or move the dial I should say. Uh
或者应该说，改变了方向。 呃，
there's a there's a story of him uh
有个故事说他
turning up in Israel a few months ago
几个月前出现在以色列
and and wanting to to see uh Benjamin
，想见
Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister,
以色列总理本杰明内塔尼亚胡，
and it was a Friday night. It was
那是一个星期五的晚上。 那天是
Shabbat. Uh and so uh Netanyahu's people
安息日。 呃，所以内塔尼亚胡的人
said, "Well, I'm sorry. Um the prime
说：“嗯，很抱歉。
minister is not available." And he said,
总理不在。” 他说：
"I don't care. I I I'm here on behalf of
“我不在乎。我……我代表
the president. I want to see him now."
总统来。我现在就想见他。”
Steve Wickoff, incidentally, is Jewish.
顺便说一句，史蒂夫·威科夫 (Steve Wickoff) 是犹太人。
Um but he he said, "I I don't I'm not
嗯，但是他说，“我
interested in in in the Sabbath. I'm not
对安息日不感兴趣。我
interested in Shabbat. I'm here to solve
对安息日不感兴趣。我来解决
this problem. Get get Netanyahu." And he
这个问题。去找内塔尼亚胡。” 然后他就
came he he pulled him to heal on that
来了，他拉着他去治疗
occasion. It doesn't seem to be working
。 现在看来效果不太
quite so well um now. Um but uh he is um
好。 嗯，但是呃他嗯
he definitely does things very very
他做事确实非常
differently but he is not uh a seasoned
不同，但他根本不是一个经验丰富的
diplomat at all. 68 years old, born in
外交官。 68岁，出生于
the Bronx in New York. Uh he's kind of
纽约布朗克斯区。 呃，几十年来，他
been part of the mega rich in New York
一直是纽约超级富豪群体中的一员
uh in the New York set uh for decades. A
。 一位
property billionaire, golfing buddy of
房地产亿万富翁，唐纳德·特朗普的高尔夫球友
Donald Trump. Uh he was on the golf
。 呃，
course in Florida last year with Trump
去年他和特朗普在佛罗里达的高尔夫球场上
uh when he faced that second
遭遇了第二次
assassination attempt. These two are
暗杀。 这两人
really really close friends. They've
真的是非常非常亲密的朋友。 他们已经
been friends for for 40 years or so. Um,
是朋友四十年左右了。 嗯，
and there's a very good story, Martha,
玛莎，有一个非常好的故事，
about a young Steve Wickoff um stepping
讲的是年轻的史蒂夫·威科夫，有
in one day at a New York deli uh to buy
一天，他走进纽约的一家熟食店，给
Trump his lunch uh because Trump Trump
特朗普买午餐，因为特朗普
apparently turned up without his wallet
显然没带钱包，
and Steve Wickoff stepped in and bought
史蒂夫·威科夫就走进去，给他买了
him his sandwich. Um, and he's known for
三明治。 嗯，他以
being a very hands-on person. Something
非常务实而闻名。
that actually we're seeing displayed now
实际上，我们现在看到的是
um with with his geop geopolitic
他戴着地缘
geopolitical hat on. Um he uh he bought
政治帽子所展现的东西。 嗯，他呃他
up property in very poor parts of New
在纽约非常贫困的地区购买了房产
York. Uh did up these properties and
。 呃，把这些房产修缮一下，
then sold them on for a lot more uh
然后以更高的
money. And he he's it's said that he
价格卖掉。 据说，他
used to go around collecting the rent uh
曾经
for these properties uh himself uh with
带着
a handgun strapped to his ankle. Uh so
一把绑在脚踝上的手枪，亲自到处收取这些房产的租金。 呃，所以
he's you know he's worked in some rough
你知道他曾在纽约的一些艰苦
parts of of um of New York. Uh but I
地区工作过。 呃，但我
think he's finding uh that the
认为他发现
challenges of Russia, Ukraine and Israel
俄罗斯、乌克兰和以色列加沙的挑战
Gaza are really very very hard indeed.
确实非常非常艰巨。
>> We've got a question mark from uh John
我们从约翰·霍桑那里得到了一个问号
Hawthorne. He asks us, I would really
。 他问我们，我真的
appreciate your take on the recent feray
很想知道您对最近
over Donald Trump allegedly ordering the
有关唐纳德·特朗普据称命令
state of Texas to arrange an early
德克萨斯州安排尽早
restructure of congressional maps. What
重组国会地图的骚乱的看法。
does that all mean? And what's happening
这一切意味着什么？ 那么加利福尼亚州发生了什么事
in California? Because it sounds like
？ 因为听起来
the same thing is happening there, but
那里也发生了同样的事情，只不过是发生在
with the Democrats. This is a sticky
民主党身上。 约翰，这是一个棘手的
subject, John, but it goes to the very
话题，但它涉及到
heart of US elections, fair
美国选举的核心，即公平
representation.
代表权。
>> It's not very easy to understand, but
虽然不太容易理解，但
I'll give it a go. It's all related to
我会尝试一下。 这一切都与
something called gerrymandering, a
所谓的选区划分不公有关，这是一种
political tactic tactic um that doesn't
exist uh in countries like the UK. So if
在英国等国家并不存在的政治策略。 以
you take the UK as an example, uh in
英国为例，
Britain uh there is an independent
英国有一个独立的
electoral body uh that looks at the
选举机构，它会查看
population census uh sees where clusters
人口普查数据，了解哪里的人口聚集度
of people have grown or declined and
增加了或减少了，
then draws or redraws the boundaries of
然后根据这一情况划定或重新划定选区的边界
constituencies off the back of that. So
。 所以
you often hear we I think we had it
你经常听到我们，我想我们
quite recently that that new
最近就听到过这样的消息，新的
constituencies had popped up because
选区出现了，因为
they're looking at at where populations
他们正在关注人口的
are moving trying to make sure that
流动，试图确保
everything's balanced and then maybe a
一切都是平衡的，然后也许
new con constituency will emerge or a
会出现一个新的选区，或者
boundary uh will be redrawn. Um in the
重新划定边界。 嗯，在
UK 70,000 or so people are grouped into
英国，大约有 70,000 人被划分到不同的
constituencies and whoever they vote for
选区，他们在选举中投票给谁，谁就
at an election becomes that member of
成为
parliament representing uh that group of
代表该群体的议员
people. Now in the US it's a bit
。 现在美国的情况有点
different. Usually maps are redrawn
不同。 通常
every 10 years or so dependent depending
每 10 年左右重新绘制一次地图，具体取决于
on new census data to make sure that
新的人口普查数据，以确保
there are around 770,000 people uh in
each federal district. But there's no
每个联邦区有大约 770,000 人。 但是没有
independent body uh that draws those
独立机构绘制这些
maps. They're redrawn uh as part of an
地图。 作为
approval process by each state's
各州
politicians in their state capital. And
政客在其州首府批准程序的一部分，它们被重新绘制。
that's when they can gerrymander parts
那时他们就可以操纵
of the state. And that means that you
该州的部分选区。 这意味着您
can irregularly draw your district
可以不规则地划分区域
boundaries to have lots of people from
边界，让来自
certain parts of the state all clustered
该州特定地区的许多人
together in the same district. So one
聚集在同一个区域。 因此，
lots of one party members in one
一个选区内有很多同党成员，
district or lots of one party members
或者很多同党成员
spread out across districts which could
分散在各个选区，这对于任何一个政党来说
of course be an advantage or a
当然可能是一个优势，也可能是一个
disadvantage uh for any one party as
劣势，
long as you can draw a continuous shape
只要你能为该选区画出一个连续的形状
for the district. It doesn't matter how
。 无论
odd how odd that shape is. as long as
形状多么奇怪都没关系。 只要重新
there are 770,000 people inside uh the
redrawn district. Uh and that is what is
划分的区域内有 770,000 人。 嗯，这就是
causing all sorts of controversy right
目前在德克萨斯州引起各种争议的原因
now down in Texas. On the instructions
。 根据
of Trump, uh they are redrawing the maps
特朗普的指示，他们
actually outside the normal 10-year
实际上在正常的 10 年
census cycle to help boost Republicans
人口普查周期之外重新绘制地图，以帮助增加共和党在
chances of winning more seats at the
midterms uh in November 2027. Uh the new
2027 年 11 月中期选举中赢得更多席位的机会。新的
map redrawing could give the Republicans
地图重新绘制可能会让共和党在
an extra five seats uh in the House here
in Washington. And clearly given it is
华盛顿的众议院中额外获得 5 个席位。 显然，鉴于
such a tight split uh in the House at
目前众议院的分裂如此激烈，
the moment uh that would be uh really
这对
advantageous uh for Donald Trump.
唐纳德·特朗普来说非常有利。
>> Yeah. And as you might expect,
是的。 正如你所料，
California uh a blue state, their
加利福尼亚州，一个蓝色州，其
governor Gavin Newsome is retaliating
州长加文·纽瑟姆正在
going tit fortat with Trump and Texas
与特朗普和德克萨斯州
Governor Greg Abbott. Uh California's
州长格雷格·阿博特进行针锋相对的报复。 呃，加州
Senate committee has approved redrawing
参议院委员会已经批准重新绘制
California's state maps to gerrymander
加州地图，
in favor of the Democrats. That would
以有利于民主党的选区划分。 这也将使
boost the Democrat seat wins in this
该州的民主党席位增加
state by five seats, too. The reality is
五个。 事实是，
the more states that get involved in
参与这场斗争的州越多
this fight, the more it benefits the
，共和党就越受益，
Republicans just because of how many
因为
more people in the city vote for the
该市将有更多的人投票给
Democrats. More rural residents
民主党。 更多农村居民
generally vote Republican. So Republican
普遍支持共和党。 因此，共和党
states can gerrymander their districts
州可以
to a greater degree than the Democrats
比民主党州更大程度地划分选区
can.
>> Yeah. So they're both at it. And it
是的。 所以他们俩都在做这件事。
seems as though Gavin Newsome, the
看起来，
governor of California, Democrat, of
加利福尼亚州州长、民主党人加
course, has begun to tweet like Donald
文·纽瑟姆也开始像唐纳德·特朗普一样发推文，
Trump as well in the style of Mr. Trump.
风格也与特朗普先生相似。
Sam from Dublin's asking about that.
来自都柏林的 Sam 询问了这个问题。
>> Yeah, I think this is a case of if you
是的，我认为如果你
can't beat them, then join them. Um,
不能打败他们，就加入他们。 嗯，
Newsome is known for maintaining a high
纽瑟姆以高调著称
profile. He hosts his own podcast and in
。 他主持自己的播客，
case you've missed it, his tweeting
如果你错过了，他的推文
style or his ex-posting style now mimics
风格或发布帖子的风格现在
Donald Trump too. It's also matching him
也模仿唐纳德·特朗普。 从频率上来说，这也与他相匹配
uh in terms of frequency. So Nuome's
。 因此，Nuome 的
Twitter account used to be very
Twitter 帐户过去常常以非常
traditional talking of new initiatives
传统的方式用
in very sober terms. Now it looks like
非常冷静的措辞谈论新举措。 现在它看起来像
Donald Trump's uh true social account.
唐纳德特朗普的真实社交账户。
Everything's in caps lock. He's calling
所有内容均大写。 他称
himself America's favorite governor. uh
自己是美国最受欢迎的州长。 呃，
he's signing off all his posts saying,
他在所有帖子的结尾都写道
"Thank you for your attention to this
“感谢您对此事的关注
matter," which is exactly what Trump
”，这正是特朗普
does. It is actually very funny. It's
所做的。 这实际上非常有趣。 这
almost mocking Donald Trump. Um but I
几乎是在嘲笑唐纳德·特朗普。 嗯，但我
think there is a serious point to it.
认为这是有重要意义的。
You know, it's deliberately to designed
你知道，总统的帖子是故意设计来
to antagonize in the way that the
激怒别人的
president's posts are. You know, they're
。 你知道，他们很
rude, they're dismissive, they're
粗鲁，他们轻蔑，他们咄咄逼人
aggressive. and he's doing it because
。 他这样做是因为
simply the Democrat's way of
民主党的
communicating isn't working. Newsome
沟通方式不起作用。 纽瑟姆
thinks he needs to get inside the MAGA
认为，他需要进入“让美国再次伟大”的
mindset and to listen to what Trump's
思维模式，并听取特朗普
supporters always say about Donald Trump
支持者对唐纳德·特朗普的看法，
and that is that he is not a traditional
那就是，他不是一个传统的
politician that he's straight talking
政治家，他直言不讳，
that you know he's not directing
你知道他不会把
everything at the liberal elite and
所有事情都针对自由派精英，
that's why they like him and Newsome's
这就是他们喜欢他的原因，纽瑟姆正在
looking at that and thinking maybe I can
关注这一点，并想也许我可以从中获益，
have you know a part of that and if we
如果我们
look at the number of uh followers of
看看他的推特账户的关注者数量，
his Twitter account it's almost doubled
in the first three weeks of August since
自从
he started
他开始
doing this, you know, so at least he is
这样做以来，8 月份的前三周，关注者数量几乎翻了一番，你知道，所以我想，至少他正在
reaching, you know, a bigger audience, I
接触到更大的受众
guess.
>> Yeah, he is definitely one to watch in
是的，他绝对是
the years ahead. Thanks so much, uh, for
未来几年值得关注的人物。 非常感谢您
sending in all your questions. As we
发送所有问题。 正如我们
always say, we love answering them, so
常说的，我们喜欢回答您的问题，所以请
keep them coming in.
继续提问。
>> Yeah, hope you have a lovely weekend.
是的，希望您度过一个愉快的周末。
And as a reminder, if you do want to get
提醒一下，如果您确实想要
in touch, you can do so at Trumps
联系，您可以通过 Trumps
sky.uk.
sky.uk 联系。
And please do remember to follow the
podcast wherever you're listening from.
无论您在何处收听，请务必记得关注播客。
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如果可以的话，也请在那里给我们留下评论或评价。